Beaver Island Energy Options
Moderator: Gillespie
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Dan Wardlow
- Posts: 85
- Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 1:37 pm
(edited to remove non-positive comments)
Last edited by Dan Wardlow on Sun Apr 27, 2008 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Data on gas well drilling
The following source list the Costs of Crude Oil and Natural Gas Wells Drilled, 1960-2005 http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/aer/txt/ptb0408.html Some where else on this site (I don't have the link) they list drilling cost at $280 per foot and $429 per foot for a dry hole. The average gas well I believe is 2000 feet. Engineers and geologist for such a project bill at upwards of $1000 per hour. The DOE reports a total cost in thousands for a well at 1,497.6 and for a dry hole at 2,392.9. These numbers seem a bit high to me but I really don't know anything about the industry.
Paved roads would make silently whisking around the island in an EV a really good time. We really could bill the island as the ant-Mackinaw if instead of horses we offered a silent scenic tour around the island in a modern EV.
How are the bumpy roads affecting your battery life?
Paved roads would make silently whisking around the island in an EV a really good time. We really could bill the island as the ant-Mackinaw if instead of horses we offered a silent scenic tour around the island in a modern EV.
How are the bumpy roads affecting your battery life?
Natural Gas wells in Ohio
I spend time in Ohio with my family. In the countryside there on private lands are NG wells, They are small in size, maybe take up 20 by 20 feet, The are maybe 10 feet high, The emit nothing from their location. The land owners sell it to the local gas companies. I wonder if a well like that could power the generator plant on the island? This idea to me is not about "BIG EVIL OIL" or about being a Greenie, It is about is there a way that we can safelty and cost effectivily use the natural resources we have to provide electricity and perhaps a NG station for supplying NG for heating. Energy enegiy independence. I don't know how this equates in some minds to the Exxon Valdez pulling into the harbor or a shiney new Nuke plant taking up the island. Paving many of the roads would be great. I have always thought a paved loop around the island would be awsome, an nice road on east side with a safe bike lane, and just a narrow road back up west side. Well, like I have said, keep it simple, IF we could power the island generator and provide clean NG for home heating and IF the mine would be small would it be a good idea? easy does it! easy does it!
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Dan Wardlow
- Posts: 85
- Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 1:37 pm
Re: Data on gas well drilling
(edited to remove non-positive comments)
Last edited by Dan Wardlow on Sun Apr 27, 2008 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
My idea, in watching us bring in petroleum and propane and brine for the roads, was to have the island as a community put a bond issue together and drill a gas well that could do much to help the long term growth and affordability of life on the island. Vehicles could be converted to run on propane or (natural gas), backup generation could be converted, heating for homes could be reduced significantly and on and on. Add to that, brine from the natural process of extracting the natural gas, could be used to treat our many miles of dirt roads! The cost of transporting these things in to the island is tremendous, not to mention the high risk of hauling propane or petroleum products across the water!
OK, I know very well that there are a million ideas out there. Never doubted it! BUT, I had hoped to generate realistic ideas and alternatives. Electric cars are cool, but cannot serve as yet until the charge rate and power availability go way up, you cannot plow your driveway or a county road with them and on and on and on. IF there were 100 years or more of natural gas beneath us it would be THE most practical DOABLE thing there is available at the best price. Following is part of a post from a site on wind generation. The average cost of a 1meg wind generator is a million dollars, then, of course, if the wind does not blow you have to have backup and so on. My brother and I gathered tapes from the tower at the old parish rectory during a study that the University of Michigan did in the 70's relating to wind generation possibilities. Then it was not practical because, believe it or not, they determined there weren't enough windy days. Yes the technology has improved greatly but you would have to put up at least three 1 million dollar wind towers to make it work, backup and all things considered. You would tear up the West side running power lines in to town to tie to the grid and many, many other things. It is not a practical thought, I believe.
Yes, the geology would have to be determined, yes it might be risky but it is the ONLY practical, viable, affordable option. If you read the top paragraph it was not focused only on natural gas but brine to treat our dirt roads. The notion that we are going to pave anytime soon is not realistic, look at Kings Highway! IF we were fortunate to find this well, and if we did export some of the product we could bring asphalt and paving materials back on the same barge, etc. etc. Come on you guys, you propose a Utopia, based on possibilities that are NOT affordable, lets focus a little better. Solar, great idea, great idea!! Who wants to front the money to set up a solar collector that will provide the power to run this island? Does it also help keep our dusty roads stable? I don't recall the budget for dust control last year but it was more than 60 grand I would argue, or thereabouts! And, needless to say, we could have used more applications (could use it now).
Wind Turbines
Wind turbines,generators and windmills while being green in nature may not be as promising as you have been led to believe. The big wind turbines you are seeing pop up around the province at best case are only 30% efficient. They produce a theoretical 1 MEG of power under ideal conditions. They produce a tiny fraction of that amount of power at low wind velocity and shut down at higher wind velocity. Typically when the temperature is at its lowest or highest the wind is low or is not consistant. The wind turbine does add power to the grid but at what cost? They typically cost $1M each. Once installed there is a low cost associated with their maintenance. The pay back time on one unit is very cost prohibitive at this time. They have been used in Europe for some time and there is a common complaint that they are not esthetically pleasing. They are usually located along the water where there is a more consistant wind flow that does nothing for the view. We have evolved to the point that once we have the good things in life that electricity provides we are reluctant to give them up. Wind turbines produce power on mother natures schedule not man's schedule. The peak power usage period just happens to coincide with the time the wind drops, first thing in the morning and at dusk. Watching the geese fly near the wind turbines they do avoid them but it does not appear to frighten them any more than transmission towers.
The future for Ontario and Canada for that matter is Nuclear and likely some additional small scale hydro generation. The cost for Nuclear is not cheap for a number of reasons ranging from management to technology but it is green and is clean and the power is basically unlimited. We have an ample supply of uranium and if we can talk the Nuclear Bomb owners to recycle the enriched uranium we have power that will help us become less reliant on the far east for expensive oil.
Watch Alberta over the next few years they will be buiding Nuclear Stations to refine the tar sands.
The Canadian politicians will soon be downloading the cost of the wind turbines to you the tax payer. Doesn't that make you feel good that you're helping the province become green even if you don't want to? http://www.flocknockers.com/showthread.php?p=432864[/quote][/i]
OK, I know very well that there are a million ideas out there. Never doubted it! BUT, I had hoped to generate realistic ideas and alternatives. Electric cars are cool, but cannot serve as yet until the charge rate and power availability go way up, you cannot plow your driveway or a county road with them and on and on and on. IF there were 100 years or more of natural gas beneath us it would be THE most practical DOABLE thing there is available at the best price. Following is part of a post from a site on wind generation. The average cost of a 1meg wind generator is a million dollars, then, of course, if the wind does not blow you have to have backup and so on. My brother and I gathered tapes from the tower at the old parish rectory during a study that the University of Michigan did in the 70's relating to wind generation possibilities. Then it was not practical because, believe it or not, they determined there weren't enough windy days. Yes the technology has improved greatly but you would have to put up at least three 1 million dollar wind towers to make it work, backup and all things considered. You would tear up the West side running power lines in to town to tie to the grid and many, many other things. It is not a practical thought, I believe.
Yes, the geology would have to be determined, yes it might be risky but it is the ONLY practical, viable, affordable option. If you read the top paragraph it was not focused only on natural gas but brine to treat our dirt roads. The notion that we are going to pave anytime soon is not realistic, look at Kings Highway! IF we were fortunate to find this well, and if we did export some of the product we could bring asphalt and paving materials back on the same barge, etc. etc. Come on you guys, you propose a Utopia, based on possibilities that are NOT affordable, lets focus a little better. Solar, great idea, great idea!! Who wants to front the money to set up a solar collector that will provide the power to run this island? Does it also help keep our dusty roads stable? I don't recall the budget for dust control last year but it was more than 60 grand I would argue, or thereabouts! And, needless to say, we could have used more applications (could use it now).
Wind Turbines
Wind turbines,generators and windmills while being green in nature may not be as promising as you have been led to believe. The big wind turbines you are seeing pop up around the province at best case are only 30% efficient. They produce a theoretical 1 MEG of power under ideal conditions. They produce a tiny fraction of that amount of power at low wind velocity and shut down at higher wind velocity. Typically when the temperature is at its lowest or highest the wind is low or is not consistant. The wind turbine does add power to the grid but at what cost? They typically cost $1M each. Once installed there is a low cost associated with their maintenance. The pay back time on one unit is very cost prohibitive at this time. They have been used in Europe for some time and there is a common complaint that they are not esthetically pleasing. They are usually located along the water where there is a more consistant wind flow that does nothing for the view. We have evolved to the point that once we have the good things in life that electricity provides we are reluctant to give them up. Wind turbines produce power on mother natures schedule not man's schedule. The peak power usage period just happens to coincide with the time the wind drops, first thing in the morning and at dusk. Watching the geese fly near the wind turbines they do avoid them but it does not appear to frighten them any more than transmission towers.
The future for Ontario and Canada for that matter is Nuclear and likely some additional small scale hydro generation. The cost for Nuclear is not cheap for a number of reasons ranging from management to technology but it is green and is clean and the power is basically unlimited. We have an ample supply of uranium and if we can talk the Nuclear Bomb owners to recycle the enriched uranium we have power that will help us become less reliant on the far east for expensive oil.
Watch Alberta over the next few years they will be buiding Nuclear Stations to refine the tar sands.
The Canadian politicians will soon be downloading the cost of the wind turbines to you the tax payer. Doesn't that make you feel good that you're helping the province become green even if you don't want to? http://www.flocknockers.com/showthread.php?p=432864[/quote][/i]
nuke plant
The nuke plant in Charlevoix is no longer there. It is a field. Has been for over a year now.
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Dan Wardlow
- Posts: 85
- Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 1:37 pm
(edited to remove non-positive comments)
Last edited by Dan Wardlow on Sun Apr 27, 2008 5:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Chamber of Commerce
- Posts: 1274
- Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2005 11:35 am
- Location: chamber@beaverisland.org
- Contact:
"Part of my vision of a utopia involves a cleaner world where our energy impacts are minimized through using renewable resources. I'm starting to suspect we have rather different utopia visions, Richie!" ......... said Dan
I tend to agree!
But, ya gota wonder where the power comes from when the wind doesn't blow and the sun doesn't shine.
Would nuke or natural gas be OK for those cold dark windless nights?
I tend to agree!
But, ya gota wonder where the power comes from when the wind doesn't blow and the sun doesn't shine.Would nuke or natural gas be OK for those cold dark windless nights?
You want options here's one
What about biodiesel from algae as an energy option? I'm sure that the algae that washes up on our shores is not the best quality algae to produce fuel from but if we could harvest it for conversion to fuel and keep it off our shores we would be better off. In the last couple of months algae as a fuel option has been widely reported, its worth taking a look at. Anyone who frequents the shoreline of the island knows that every year our beaches see more & more of the stuff. The rapid increase of algae in Lake Michigan is probably the biggest economic threats to the island. If it continues to increase, and it appears that it will, shoreline property prices could plummet. Kill two birds with one stone: harvest the algae that threatens the island and convert it to fuel.
What's with all the talk of Utopia? This is an economic issue. I might support gas drilling and fuel production if there is a solid economic case for it that shows that it will lower taxes and reduce fuel cost. Ifs and antidotal reports of "product" found don't cut it. Do you have any real numbers or facts. If you do pass them along unless there "top secret". Utopia & government run industries, you're starting to sound like Karl Marx.
Keep it simple, easy does it, I agree. Lets keep the local government that way and focus on the providing basic services and keeping taxes low.
What's with all the talk of Utopia? This is an economic issue. I might support gas drilling and fuel production if there is a solid economic case for it that shows that it will lower taxes and reduce fuel cost. Ifs and antidotal reports of "product" found don't cut it. Do you have any real numbers or facts. If you do pass them along unless there "top secret". Utopia & government run industries, you're starting to sound like Karl Marx.
Keep it simple, easy does it, I agree. Lets keep the local government that way and focus on the providing basic services and keeping taxes low.
My "utopian" idea was based strictly on prior reports of "found" product. Not on fantasy of priceless technology (at least in the local sense). I started the thread to discuss the PROS of drilling a gas well to serve the island, something that could serve in the very near future with the staggering cost of "imported oil". You are all chasing the idea to hell. If someone wants to start a negative thread start your own! The idea of nuclear or windpower or solar is right off the charts for the entire island community. Maybe I should retitle the thread to say. IF THERE WERE AN OPTION FOR CHEAPER GAS FOR THE NEXT 30 YEARS DOES ANYONE THINK IT WOULD BE DRILLING? The negatives present themselves, lets look seriously at the positives, let's get the guy up here with the geology reports from the previous holes.
Contact Info
I don't think that you need to track down the geologist from 40 years ago. You can more than likely get the information on what's below the island by contacting the following. I'm sure that even if they can't confirm that there's "product" down there they more than likely can tell how deep you would have to go to find out & what it might cost. Since you are serious about this why don't you write or give them a call & report back to us.
Lets get some facts & then debate forming yet another governmental unit.
MICHIGAN DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL QUALITY Office of Geological Survey Oil & Gas, Mineral Wells, and Mining programs Mailing address:PO Box 30256, Lansing, MI 48909-7756 Street address: 525 W. Allegan St., South Tower, 1st floor, Lansing, MI 48933 Ph 517-241-1515 Fax 517-241-1595
Gaylord Field Office
2100 West M-32, Gaylord, MI 49735
Ph 989-731-4920; Fax 989-731-6181
Kalamazoo District
Lets get some facts & then debate forming yet another governmental unit.
MICHIGAN DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL QUALITY Office of Geological Survey Oil & Gas, Mineral Wells, and Mining programs Mailing address:PO Box 30256, Lansing, MI 48909-7756 Street address: 525 W. Allegan St., South Tower, 1st floor, Lansing, MI 48933 Ph 517-241-1515 Fax 517-241-1595
Gaylord Field Office
2100 West M-32, Gaylord, MI 49735
Ph 989-731-4920; Fax 989-731-6181
Kalamazoo District
Thanks TjD, I guess thats all I ever wanted was to have a reasonable debate! I have long known about solar and wind but they have never to this day taken the place of any energy source so completely that we can forget the rest, that would be great! So........let's look at this in a practical way, and, if I am wrong, way off, in my assertion here, I will be the first to admit it. But, if anyone can prove that WE as an isolated community of people can do this on ANY other "affordable" resource, county me in!!
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Dan Wardlow
- Posts: 85
- Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 1:37 pm
A "debate" to support the PROS of drilling a gas well isn't a debate at all ... it's cheerleading, Richie. Sorry I rained on your pep rally. I've gone ahead and just edited out all my previous comments that were non-positive. Now you can get to just discussing the PROS, eh?Gillespie wrote:I started the thread to discuss the PROS of drilling a gas well to serve the island, something that could serve in the very near future with the staggering cost of "imported oil". You are all chasing the idea to hell. If someone wants to start a negative thread start your own!
I started the thread to discuss a gas well, the only practical thing we could do in the affordable, possible sense. It went immediately to windmills and solar panels, I guess that is not what my question was. Perhaps I shouldn't have bothered but, as someone in business here trying to pay bills and make a living I thought some logical debate could take place. I then posted a website link that came up in a Google search only to find told I didn't pick the most positive optimistic one. You act as if I was looking to have the well drilled on my own property or something, none of which is true. I just thought it might be curious to see what we could do on a reality basis and not the solar and wind business which is obviously out of our price range, I guess we'll just have to forget it. Let's see what better ideas come up.