April 18, 2007
With the weather improving and the anticipation of summer, my thoughts are consumed with my favorite pastime; Golf. Throughout my adolescent and young adult life my summers have included many rounds of golf which have usually ended in success. Unfortunately, my greatest weakness is my biological makeupâ?¦ I am female.
I am a fairly new resident to the island and was excited to be invited to play in the Wednesday night golf league this summer. I know fairly well that playing in the menâ??s league would include proving myself. However, I never imagined I would be denied the right to play by the golf league administrator. I understand the concern of wanting to keep the level of play high, however, my experience and qualifications give me the same right as any other skilled golfer to play on Wednesday evening. Not only was I a four year letter winner at Hope College of Holland, Michigan, captain of both my collegiate and high school golf team my senior years, two time State Finalist at my class A High School in Midland, Michigan, two time City of Midland Golf Champion, and current reigning City of Midland title holder. With my love for golf and experiences, a spring intramural golf league has been added at BICS.
The 21st Century is upon us and this sort of discrimination should not be tolerated. The Nineteenth Amendment was passed in 1920 giving Women the right to vote, the Civil Rights Act was passed in 1964 which outlawed discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, or national origin, the LPGA was founded in 1959 and numerous women have qualified and successfully competed in PGA events. I do not believe I should be denied the right to play because of my biological makeup.
Respectively,
Marianne Brown
Should your Biology prohibit you to play?
Moderator: Gillespie
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Marie S Powers
- Posts: 38
- Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2006 4:45 pm
Golf League
What a shame that you are not allowed to participate. I hope this is a misunderstanding. While I don't know the league's bylaws it seems with your qualifications the league would love to have you included...if for no other reason than to get some pointers.
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Phyllis Moore
- Posts: 262
- Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2006 5:06 pm
- Location: Beaver Island
I will be following this closely. I do hope none of my brothers are this narrow minded!!! 
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Mike Green
- Posts: 26
- Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 7:44 am
- Location: Beaver Island
Discrimination??
I wonder if the Wednesday night's golf league membership knows about this. There are several facts that no one has placed out in the public that may or may not influence this decision:
1. MB was not asking for any special privileges. She would tee off at the exact same location as the other players in the league. She would follow all requirements of the Wednesday-night golf league without any changes in policy, by-laws, or rules.
2. MB would play the game as my partner. Just as MB would not ask for any special privileges, our team would not request any special privileges. She would be a reliable partner on the golf course. The substitutes list was not a reliable list last year, and many times there were no subs available.
3. The suggestion that she was not on the substitute list does not hold water. There is a golf pro playing in this league with amateurs. Last fall there was an elementary student playing in the fall league. There were several times that non-sublist substitutes played last summer. They were immediately put on the sublist. Will MB be put on the sublist?
I think this should be put to a vote of the players in the league, and I don't think that it should be by secret ballot. I think that each member needs to reveal his opinion publicly. My contact with eight previous league members showed not one single person against MB playing in the league on Wednesday night. I haven't had any contact from anyone in the league except the golf administrator Ron Wojan about this issue. I think as a former league member I deserve a written reason for my partner's exclusion from the league. Where is the accountability?
I also want the rest of the league to know this reason. I guess my golf league membership will also be given away to another substitute from the sublist since I don't plan on playing in a league that discriminates, but it better not be given to someone not on the sublist. Fair is fair. It is one thing to deny a person to play in the league after the league play starts, but quite another to exclude a player before the league starts.
Where is the fairness?
So Richie, Jeff, Joe, Larry, John, Ryan, Rob, Mike, Frank, Jeff, Buck, Bill, John, Larry, Neal, Kevin, John, and Bill, are you supportive of this action? I really would like to know.
Joe Moore
1. MB was not asking for any special privileges. She would tee off at the exact same location as the other players in the league. She would follow all requirements of the Wednesday-night golf league without any changes in policy, by-laws, or rules.
2. MB would play the game as my partner. Just as MB would not ask for any special privileges, our team would not request any special privileges. She would be a reliable partner on the golf course. The substitutes list was not a reliable list last year, and many times there were no subs available.
3. The suggestion that she was not on the substitute list does not hold water. There is a golf pro playing in this league with amateurs. Last fall there was an elementary student playing in the fall league. There were several times that non-sublist substitutes played last summer. They were immediately put on the sublist. Will MB be put on the sublist?
I think this should be put to a vote of the players in the league, and I don't think that it should be by secret ballot. I think that each member needs to reveal his opinion publicly. My contact with eight previous league members showed not one single person against MB playing in the league on Wednesday night. I haven't had any contact from anyone in the league except the golf administrator Ron Wojan about this issue. I think as a former league member I deserve a written reason for my partner's exclusion from the league. Where is the accountability?
I also want the rest of the league to know this reason. I guess my golf league membership will also be given away to another substitute from the sublist since I don't plan on playing in a league that discriminates, but it better not be given to someone not on the sublist. Fair is fair. It is one thing to deny a person to play in the league after the league play starts, but quite another to exclude a player before the league starts.
Where is the fairness?
So Richie, Jeff, Joe, Larry, John, Ryan, Rob, Mike, Frank, Jeff, Buck, Bill, John, Larry, Neal, Kevin, John, and Bill, are you supportive of this action? I really would like to know.
Joe Moore
Request for a league vote
I am requesting that the membership in the Wednesday night golf league vote on this issue before the teams are determined for this year's league membership. What do you think?
Joe
Joe
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Frank Solle
- Posts: 139
- Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 9:52 am
As a member of the Wed. golf league, I am all for Marianne joining in on the fun, even though she is a much better golfer than I am â?? just as I had no problem with Larry Roy joining last year, despite his one-time PGA status. If you want to improve your game, you have to play against those who are better than you (which for me is pretty easy to do).
During the past two years I have been fortunate to play a number of rounds of golf with Marianne. They have been highly competitive, great fun, and very enjoyable. Bottom line is, she is a golfer and a competitor, and a damn good one.
I know there is some talk that she hasnâ??t been on the substitute list, and that is how you eventually earn a spot in the league. Itâ??s how I got in. But right now there are a number of â??regularsâ?? without partners and the bulk of the sub list players, as anyone involved with the league who has tried to find an early-season sub can attest, wonâ??t be here until the league is well underway.
The league players normally meet one week prior to the start of play in order to pay dues and review the rules of league play. Perhaps at that time the current members could discuss this in the open and hold a vote on whether or not Marianne should play, thatâ??s how we do things in a democracy isnâ??t it?
If the votes say nay, I will wish Marianne luck in the new Thursday night ladies league that she also plans on joining. If the votes say aye, I will wish the rest of the mens league players good luck and look to get in more practice before I go up against Marianne and her partner.
During the past two years I have been fortunate to play a number of rounds of golf with Marianne. They have been highly competitive, great fun, and very enjoyable. Bottom line is, she is a golfer and a competitor, and a damn good one.
I know there is some talk that she hasnâ??t been on the substitute list, and that is how you eventually earn a spot in the league. Itâ??s how I got in. But right now there are a number of â??regularsâ?? without partners and the bulk of the sub list players, as anyone involved with the league who has tried to find an early-season sub can attest, wonâ??t be here until the league is well underway.
The league players normally meet one week prior to the start of play in order to pay dues and review the rules of league play. Perhaps at that time the current members could discuss this in the open and hold a vote on whether or not Marianne should play, thatâ??s how we do things in a democracy isnâ??t it?
If the votes say nay, I will wish Marianne luck in the new Thursday night ladies league that she also plans on joining. If the votes say aye, I will wish the rest of the mens league players good luck and look to get in more practice before I go up against Marianne and her partner.
No Response Richie?
I am just curious about this. Richie usually has comments to post on most other topics. Are you avoiding this one on purpose?
Joe
Joe
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Phyllis Moore
- Posts: 262
- Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2006 5:06 pm
- Location: Beaver Island
Resolution???
I have a couple of questions about this issue. If Ron Wojan did not tell MB that she couldn't play, and he assured me on the phone tonight that he did not, then who did? Who gave her the impression that she would not be allowed to play?
So I publicly apologize since I placed the blame on the wrong person. Ron, I apologize in the same public forum in which I accused you. so who is responsible for giving MB the impression (if not a written letter) that she was not welcome to play in the Wednesday night league?
It appears that there will be a vote on the night of the organizational meeting. Interestingly enough, I have heard only from a couple of the players, so I guess we'll just have to wait and see how the vote comes out.
I guess the last question I have is truly one that I have to address to MB.
By the way, Richie, you are still awfully quiet. What's going on here?
Joe
So I publicly apologize since I placed the blame on the wrong person. Ron, I apologize in the same public forum in which I accused you. so who is responsible for giving MB the impression (if not a written letter) that she was not welcome to play in the Wednesday night league?
It appears that there will be a vote on the night of the organizational meeting. Interestingly enough, I have heard only from a couple of the players, so I guess we'll just have to wait and see how the vote comes out.
I guess the last question I have is truly one that I have to address to MB.
By the way, Richie, you are still awfully quiet. What's going on here?
Joe
Re: Should your Biology prohibit you to play?
A few things came up for me when I read Marianne's post:
First of all, don't ever apologize for being female, or act as if it is an unfortunate thing. Maybe you were setting up your story, but if a female enters into an arena feeling female, or a black feeling black, or an illiterate, or poor, or believed to be handicapped in some way, then action has already been taken to teach others how to treat you. That will become your reality.
Secondly, if we are overlooked by some misguided act of discrimination, then that is that - it is what it is. Whether or not we are good at golf or somehow believed qualified because of past accomplishments, then we are overlooking the great tragedy of discrimination and therefore participating in the process of victimization - we become a player in the perpretrator/victim act, and we are just as guilty of sustaining the act as the perpetrator - we validate it with the response. If you are unjustly put asided for being female, then let's call it right there and take corrective action - get help if we need it (victims often need help breaking this cycle)
Finally, if in fact this is not actually about being male or female and more about the rules of membership (sublist, men's league, signup deadlines, etc.), then shame on you for calling out the cry of the victim before getting the facts. This act draws in people and burns energy over something that in this case doesn't exist and therefore, actually hurts the cause and lessens the chances for healing in that community.
If this is really happening as you stated and you are mistreated because of your biological makeup, I am on your side and I want to help. chances are you will be blamed for calling it, and led to feel guilty, (as in my last paragraph). You may be led to denying what you said and change your mind of the facts (remember Paula Jones). I still want to help.
One more thing... I think I remember reading Joe stating that you would play off the men's tees. I will remind you that in Golf, there are men's tees and women's tees. I would encourage you to stick with the women's tees and not suffer the burden of playing the men's tees. I have to think that these tees are set up this way to level the playing field due to the physical nature of the biological difference between men and women as it relates to the golf swing. If this is innaccurate, then maybe the cause has to go up to the appropriate golf associations that write the rules.
My hope here is that you play in the league, and have fun. And be proud of who you are as you set up your approach off the Women's Tees, with all the advantage that those tees allow, and beat the hell out of any of the men out there who disagree. You will pave the way for other women in your community to learn and enjoy golfing - and not simply pave the way for women golfers who already have awards and trophies.
Rich
First of all, don't ever apologize for being female, or act as if it is an unfortunate thing. Maybe you were setting up your story, but if a female enters into an arena feeling female, or a black feeling black, or an illiterate, or poor, or believed to be handicapped in some way, then action has already been taken to teach others how to treat you. That will become your reality.
Secondly, if we are overlooked by some misguided act of discrimination, then that is that - it is what it is. Whether or not we are good at golf or somehow believed qualified because of past accomplishments, then we are overlooking the great tragedy of discrimination and therefore participating in the process of victimization - we become a player in the perpretrator/victim act, and we are just as guilty of sustaining the act as the perpetrator - we validate it with the response. If you are unjustly put asided for being female, then let's call it right there and take corrective action - get help if we need it (victims often need help breaking this cycle)
Finally, if in fact this is not actually about being male or female and more about the rules of membership (sublist, men's league, signup deadlines, etc.), then shame on you for calling out the cry of the victim before getting the facts. This act draws in people and burns energy over something that in this case doesn't exist and therefore, actually hurts the cause and lessens the chances for healing in that community.
If this is really happening as you stated and you are mistreated because of your biological makeup, I am on your side and I want to help. chances are you will be blamed for calling it, and led to feel guilty, (as in my last paragraph). You may be led to denying what you said and change your mind of the facts (remember Paula Jones). I still want to help.
One more thing... I think I remember reading Joe stating that you would play off the men's tees. I will remind you that in Golf, there are men's tees and women's tees. I would encourage you to stick with the women's tees and not suffer the burden of playing the men's tees. I have to think that these tees are set up this way to level the playing field due to the physical nature of the biological difference between men and women as it relates to the golf swing. If this is innaccurate, then maybe the cause has to go up to the appropriate golf associations that write the rules.
My hope here is that you play in the league, and have fun. And be proud of who you are as you set up your approach off the Women's Tees, with all the advantage that those tees allow, and beat the hell out of any of the men out there who disagree. You will pave the way for other women in your community to learn and enjoy golfing - and not simply pave the way for women golfers who already have awards and trophies.
Rich
Re: Should your Biology prohibit you to play?
I just read Marriane's note again and realized that she is feeling discriminated because she can't play on the MEN's league. How did I miss that? Did everyone miss it? Now this really bothers me. I would think that one of the first bylaws of forming a men's league would be... um... let's see... being of men?
How do women feel about this? I mean average golfing women who perhaps want to play on a men's golf league. I would guess the next order of business for the men's golf administrator would be to set up qualifications based on average score. Let's see... Men's Leagues shall be comprised strictly of men, except in the case of high scoring women golfers. A woman shall be deemed qualified if she can prove a high school golf career where she was captain for a minimum of 1 (one) golf season. Furthermore, she must demonstrate and prove...(you get the idea).
The library where I am is about to close.
How do women feel about this? I mean average golfing women who perhaps want to play on a men's golf league. I would guess the next order of business for the men's golf administrator would be to set up qualifications based on average score. Let's see... Men's Leagues shall be comprised strictly of men, except in the case of high scoring women golfers. A woman shall be deemed qualified if she can prove a high school golf career where she was captain for a minimum of 1 (one) golf season. Furthermore, she must demonstrate and prove...(you get the idea).
The library where I am is about to close.
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Trish Scott
- Posts: 346
- Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2005 11:05 pm
I'm just guessing here... but perhaps skilled women golfers prefer to play with men as the game proceeds in a quicker fashion than with most female golfers. I'm often more comfortable playing with women as they are not as competitive (maybe I really mean not as good so I don't worry about my need to hit the ball so darn many times).
I've known a few really talented female golfers and they can really keep up with good male golfers.
Perhaps this talented woman wants to play with players that are more of her skill level. (I've never golfed with any of the women golfers on Beaver Island, so I can't possibly be insulting anyone!)
Some women I've golfed with here on the mainland are quite slow and vary in their knowledge of the etiquette and rules. If I were a very talented golfer, I think they might just try my patience.
Just my two cents on an issue that is absolutely none of my business. Just trying to provide another perspective.
I've known a few really talented female golfers and they can really keep up with good male golfers.
Perhaps this talented woman wants to play with players that are more of her skill level. (I've never golfed with any of the women golfers on Beaver Island, so I can't possibly be insulting anyone!)
Some women I've golfed with here on the mainland are quite slow and vary in their knowledge of the etiquette and rules. If I were a very talented golfer, I think they might just try my patience.
Just my two cents on an issue that is absolutely none of my business. Just trying to provide another perspective.