The decision to consolidate townships is before the island voters.
The current discussion of consolidation in public meetings or on this form has not allowed the two present townships an opportunity to tell the taxpayers how they are working diligently to provide an effective, efficient, and accountable government. I attend meetings, sometimes they are uncomfortable and confrontational. Let's hear from the township officials offering an in-depth review of budgets and how we might streamline functions and services within the framework of two townships. Perhaps they can state why consolidation is unnecessary.
Presently both townships are essentially functioning as one township by sharing funding for essential services and providing a joint Master Plan, and some jointly administered property, over site for all public services: BIRHC, Airport, Fire-EMS, Transfer Station, and the BID Library. These entities need to be more responsive to the townships and taxpayers that are financially supporting them. The townships and taxpayers need more information, annual written reports, and more input regarding their operations.
Maybe the consolidation idea was born through the years of frustration with the status quo. Taxpayers-not just voters-deserve a voice on the future of the Island. Homeownership across township lines is essential to the future of Beaver Island as is tourism which will attract new homeowners. We need a frank and honest discussion on the pros and cons of consolidation. With enough information, the decision makes itself. Let's talk honestly and without rancor for the future of our Island.
Interest find on township consolidations
Moderator: Gillespie
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islandliving
- Posts: 526
- Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2015 9:10 am
- Location: Beaver Island, Michigan
Carol. Being against consolidation and having a very strong feeling is is a mistake and being done for wrong reasons is not negative. No one is calling you negative for being a supporter. Let s people speak their opinions openly. If people want to express opinions and information on the forum then it should be encouraged. There is reasons for anger on this issue and are explained in the post. The first posting about the consolidation was put on by Angel Welke. Now it is the wrong place for information posting. Explain??
John McCafferty.
John McCafferty.
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Nancy Levant
- Posts: 37
- Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:41 am
One of the first principles of Lean Six Sigma management strategies is to increase productivity by eliminating unnecessary and repetitive processes and associated costs. Redundancy, by its very nature, is expensive. I begin this post with Lean Six Sigma because I had a conversation with another island resident who raised some very thoughtful considerations. The issue of the â??defense of taxpayersâ? was raised, which led to necessarily thinking about the consolidation, and whether two townships are, in fact, in taxpayersâ?? best interests.
According to the Michigan Townships Association, â??Michiganâ??s system of local government is sometimes described as â??confusing,â? â??overlapping,â? and â??redundant,â? but the existence of townships actually provides a degree of simplicity and cohesiveness that other, non-township states lack,â? again leading to the topics of redundancy and consolidation.
Two townhall buildings with their maintenance and upkeep, double sets of multiple and mandatory insurance policies and premiums, two sets of paid trustees, two sets of monthly utility and communication bills (for each townhall building), two separate renewal fees, double sets of office equipment, supplies, computer systems, automobiles, etc., two boards overseeing many island services, two sets of elections, etc.; in other words, VERY expensive and annual redundancy. The question of whether this system is a best defense of taxpayers is more than legitimate.
I have heard many stories regarding townships using one against the other and passing the buck and blame on many issues and for many years. However, in my conversation with the resident, I was told of a hope for cohesion: â??A cohesive body of peopleâ? to serve the needs of Beaver Island without a constant battle between boards, diverting attention, and causing anger in paradise. The logic of consolidation cannot be ignored, because 600 people cannot afford to operate two identical governing bodiesâ??particularly when dollars need to be spent, for example, making ferry travel for island residents and tourists reasonably affordable, which it is not, and which negatively impacts many peopleâ??s ability to travel or move to Beaver Island. Those people are the islandâ??s bread and butter. Equally, as a new resident, I have heard the negative impact of township fighting, which is at times cut-throat, but to what end?
For me, and only eight months in, I realize that both sides have reasonable points and concerns, but a division on an island of 600, many of which married with extended island families, from founding families, and with everyone having wonderful and thoughtful ideas for the islandâ??s future, it may be that residents themselves need consolidation in order that they can act in the best interest of the islandâ??s future. A township consolidation, if nothing else, will eliminate many â??â?¦unnecessary processes and associated costs,â? as well as stop turf fights, power jockeying, and resentments between township residents. Therefore, the question must be asked: How many governments are necessary for eight people per square mile? Food for thought.
Thank you for tolerating all of this from a newbie. Clearly, I think/ponder through a keyboard. Also, many thanks to the one who called. Your thoughtful wisdom, insights, and experience added new dimensions and depth to my current understanding, and I am sincerely grateful.
According to the Michigan Townships Association, â??Michiganâ??s system of local government is sometimes described as â??confusing,â? â??overlapping,â? and â??redundant,â? but the existence of townships actually provides a degree of simplicity and cohesiveness that other, non-township states lack,â? again leading to the topics of redundancy and consolidation.
Two townhall buildings with their maintenance and upkeep, double sets of multiple and mandatory insurance policies and premiums, two sets of paid trustees, two sets of monthly utility and communication bills (for each townhall building), two separate renewal fees, double sets of office equipment, supplies, computer systems, automobiles, etc., two boards overseeing many island services, two sets of elections, etc.; in other words, VERY expensive and annual redundancy. The question of whether this system is a best defense of taxpayers is more than legitimate.
I have heard many stories regarding townships using one against the other and passing the buck and blame on many issues and for many years. However, in my conversation with the resident, I was told of a hope for cohesion: â??A cohesive body of peopleâ? to serve the needs of Beaver Island without a constant battle between boards, diverting attention, and causing anger in paradise. The logic of consolidation cannot be ignored, because 600 people cannot afford to operate two identical governing bodiesâ??particularly when dollars need to be spent, for example, making ferry travel for island residents and tourists reasonably affordable, which it is not, and which negatively impacts many peopleâ??s ability to travel or move to Beaver Island. Those people are the islandâ??s bread and butter. Equally, as a new resident, I have heard the negative impact of township fighting, which is at times cut-throat, but to what end?
For me, and only eight months in, I realize that both sides have reasonable points and concerns, but a division on an island of 600, many of which married with extended island families, from founding families, and with everyone having wonderful and thoughtful ideas for the islandâ??s future, it may be that residents themselves need consolidation in order that they can act in the best interest of the islandâ??s future. A township consolidation, if nothing else, will eliminate many â??â?¦unnecessary processes and associated costs,â? as well as stop turf fights, power jockeying, and resentments between township residents. Therefore, the question must be asked: How many governments are necessary for eight people per square mile? Food for thought.
Thank you for tolerating all of this from a newbie. Clearly, I think/ponder through a keyboard. Also, many thanks to the one who called. Your thoughtful wisdom, insights, and experience added new dimensions and depth to my current understanding, and I am sincerely grateful.
Nancy
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islandliving
- Posts: 526
- Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2015 9:10 am
- Location: Beaver Island, Michigan
The problems of being a divided Island should have been worked on first. The consolidation should have been studied and all the good and positive impacts presented, open discussion, meetings ect. If a good positive approach was taken and the consolidation attempt was more broadcasted to the public before it went to the county then Alot of the anger wouldnâ??t be there. Win or lose the consolidation attempt has divided the Island people more now than ever.
John McCafferty
John McCafferty
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carolburton
- Posts: 247
- Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:27 am
- Contact:
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meadefamily
- Posts: 280
- Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2014 7:35 pm
Carol,
There is alot of "talk" but looking back at the topics I don't see much solid information. Seems you have an inside scoop and are in conversation with the petitioners. Angel and John posted this on the forum but have not answered any questions or put out any solid facts. Lots of opinions and possibilities...
At one time I read that the feeling was that taxes would go up in Peanine and down in St. James. I cant locate that information, which is not suprising, as editing on the forum is done often.
Can you start a new thread that deals in FACTS only and not speculation? Has anyone done a study? Consolidating has many merits, but without facts it is hard to trust the sources.
Angels website is nice, but I see alot of fluff and not alot of facts. You have expressed your hope that the conversation be so that everyone is respected and taxpayers have a voice. Maybe this would be something great for you to facilitate.
Kathe
There is alot of "talk" but looking back at the topics I don't see much solid information. Seems you have an inside scoop and are in conversation with the petitioners. Angel and John posted this on the forum but have not answered any questions or put out any solid facts. Lots of opinions and possibilities...
At one time I read that the feeling was that taxes would go up in Peanine and down in St. James. I cant locate that information, which is not suprising, as editing on the forum is done often.
Can you start a new thread that deals in FACTS only and not speculation? Has anyone done a study? Consolidating has many merits, but without facts it is hard to trust the sources.
Angels website is nice, but I see alot of fluff and not alot of facts. You have expressed your hope that the conversation be so that everyone is respected and taxpayers have a voice. Maybe this would be something great for you to facilitate.
Kathe
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Nancy Levant
- Posts: 37
- Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:41 am
Hi John and Carol,
With no knowledge of the players or history of the township issues, and at the same time learning how a smallest and isolated community survives in a world system set up for huge government, populations, commerce, trade, etc., this township vote has taken on profound if not symbolic dimensions.
I have repeatedly read that township government is the last vestige of people-focused government. As such, voters are charged with its best care, but even more so, voters are charged with ensuring the survival of every person on this island, because their co-dependence for survival is a reality. Admittedly, it took time for me to connect the importance of this vote to island co-dependence.
John, I hear you and the many others who were unaware of the forthcoming consolidation vote. You are not alone and, clearly, a better effort should have been undertaken to explain why the initiative to consolidate was believed to be necessary. However, the vote is in fact forthcoming, and so both side are now charged with providing facts, and only facts, as to why the consolidation is or is not in the best interest of island residents. Both cases must be made so that we are all fully informed, and everyone is waiting for those facts, both for and against. Any anger, whether justified or not, is now water under the bridge. The vote is happening, and the best argument will win.
Living every day of our lives dominated by money, with no one escaping this reality, most do not have enough money to live securely or particularly well. Even those who have never practiced actual budgeting likely do so on some level in todayâ??s economy â?? the gridlock that has persisted for over 40 years.
Michiganders have been particularly scarred by this near half-century and ongoing economic nightmare. Every business and household knows, in all certainty, that the most frugal spending is mandatory for survival.
Taxpayers, who must efficiently economize simply to live, must also demand that their governments operate with the same efficiency and economic scrutiny. As such, the question remains as to whether two identical governments on Beaver Island, supported by 600 people, is an efficient system or a redundant system, if not wholly lacking in efficiency or minimal practicality or even logic. On the side of consolidation, such concerns cannot be ignored. Minus one or two exceptions, why would 600 islanders choose to support two identical and very expensive systems â?? both performing most of the identical functions? This reality is hard to argue, particularly in this economy, but in order to argue, non-consolidation facts and rationalities must also be provided, because complaints about the initial ballot process simply wonâ??t cut the mustard for winning a non-consolidation argument.
With justified demand for facts, proving that a consolidation of St. James and Peaine Townships is best for taxpayers and their quality of life, the very same demand is necessary for a non-consolidation argument. Therefore, two words: efficiency and redundancy. Address them with facts; both camps/both sides.
One more consideration and Iâ??ll stop: Two sets of CPAs, two legal firms/hired attorneys representing two townships, two separate audits, two sets of financial statements, etc.; Iâ??ll lay odds this costs well over six figures. I would love to get some idea of what redundancy costs on Beaver Island and how duplicate governments benefit taxpayers, because this is not about turf wars; itâ??s about achieving the most economical services and future for the people. This vote is about us.
With no knowledge of the players or history of the township issues, and at the same time learning how a smallest and isolated community survives in a world system set up for huge government, populations, commerce, trade, etc., this township vote has taken on profound if not symbolic dimensions.
I have repeatedly read that township government is the last vestige of people-focused government. As such, voters are charged with its best care, but even more so, voters are charged with ensuring the survival of every person on this island, because their co-dependence for survival is a reality. Admittedly, it took time for me to connect the importance of this vote to island co-dependence.
John, I hear you and the many others who were unaware of the forthcoming consolidation vote. You are not alone and, clearly, a better effort should have been undertaken to explain why the initiative to consolidate was believed to be necessary. However, the vote is in fact forthcoming, and so both side are now charged with providing facts, and only facts, as to why the consolidation is or is not in the best interest of island residents. Both cases must be made so that we are all fully informed, and everyone is waiting for those facts, both for and against. Any anger, whether justified or not, is now water under the bridge. The vote is happening, and the best argument will win.
Living every day of our lives dominated by money, with no one escaping this reality, most do not have enough money to live securely or particularly well. Even those who have never practiced actual budgeting likely do so on some level in todayâ??s economy â?? the gridlock that has persisted for over 40 years.
Michiganders have been particularly scarred by this near half-century and ongoing economic nightmare. Every business and household knows, in all certainty, that the most frugal spending is mandatory for survival.
Taxpayers, who must efficiently economize simply to live, must also demand that their governments operate with the same efficiency and economic scrutiny. As such, the question remains as to whether two identical governments on Beaver Island, supported by 600 people, is an efficient system or a redundant system, if not wholly lacking in efficiency or minimal practicality or even logic. On the side of consolidation, such concerns cannot be ignored. Minus one or two exceptions, why would 600 islanders choose to support two identical and very expensive systems â?? both performing most of the identical functions? This reality is hard to argue, particularly in this economy, but in order to argue, non-consolidation facts and rationalities must also be provided, because complaints about the initial ballot process simply wonâ??t cut the mustard for winning a non-consolidation argument.
With justified demand for facts, proving that a consolidation of St. James and Peaine Townships is best for taxpayers and their quality of life, the very same demand is necessary for a non-consolidation argument. Therefore, two words: efficiency and redundancy. Address them with facts; both camps/both sides.
One more consideration and Iâ??ll stop: Two sets of CPAs, two legal firms/hired attorneys representing two townships, two separate audits, two sets of financial statements, etc.; Iâ??ll lay odds this costs well over six figures. I would love to get some idea of what redundancy costs on Beaver Island and how duplicate governments benefit taxpayers, because this is not about turf wars; itâ??s about achieving the most economical services and future for the people. This vote is about us.
Nancy
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meadefamily
- Posts: 280
- Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2014 7:35 pm
Nancy,
Where are you getting your figures of attorney cost and audits being "well over six figures ". That would equate to 7 figures, or a million. Looking at St. James proposed budget for 2018, and reviewing 17 actual one can observe the attorney fees are 10,000 and audit is 7,500. CPA fees are the audit fees. I can not imagine Peanine township expenses would be much different.
Again folks...FACTS. Yes dates of millage expirations, cost of services, and factual statements do matter. Embellishments are dangerous.
If there are other documents to support your "well over six figures" I would love to see them.
Kathe
Where are you getting your figures of attorney cost and audits being "well over six figures ". That would equate to 7 figures, or a million. Looking at St. James proposed budget for 2018, and reviewing 17 actual one can observe the attorney fees are 10,000 and audit is 7,500. CPA fees are the audit fees. I can not imagine Peanine township expenses would be much different.
Again folks...FACTS. Yes dates of millage expirations, cost of services, and factual statements do matter. Embellishments are dangerous.
If there are other documents to support your "well over six figures" I would love to see them.
Kathe
Last edited by meadefamily on Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Andy's Grooming Barn
- Posts: 371
- Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:23 am
Wow Nancy no offence but you are way off base and before you start throwing out figures that you have no idea what you are talking about you should be calling and asking questions. Six figures are you kidding me, your costs are not close, why would you just throw that out there without anything to back it up. You said you were new here but you all of a sudden know our financials? I would like to see where you got this from and it must be from out township records, so I will wait to see what you have............
Andy Kohls
Andy's Grooming and Boarding Barn
Andy's Grooming and Boarding Barn
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Nancy Levant
- Posts: 37
- Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:41 am
Andy,
As a former grant administrator, I do in fact, know what it costs for CPA services, audits, financial statements, and legal representation. When multiplying those costs by two (two separate townships), I can estimate that those costs would be in the six-figure range. Perhaps I'm wrong, but probably not by much. But you are right, I don't know the exact numbers nor have I seen them, which is why I stated in a former post that I would like to see the actual costs of the redundancy. I'm sorry if this upset you. It's not what I want to do.
As a former grant administrator, I do in fact, know what it costs for CPA services, audits, financial statements, and legal representation. When multiplying those costs by two (two separate townships), I can estimate that those costs would be in the six-figure range. Perhaps I'm wrong, but probably not by much. But you are right, I don't know the exact numbers nor have I seen them, which is why I stated in a former post that I would like to see the actual costs of the redundancy. I'm sorry if this upset you. It's not what I want to do.
Nancy
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meadefamily
- Posts: 280
- Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2014 7:35 pm
Nancy,
Where are you getting your figures of attorney cost and audits being "well over six figures ". That would equate to 7 figures, or a million. Looking at St. James proposed budget for 2018, and reviewing 17 actual one can observe the attorney fees are 10,000 and audit is 7,500. CPA fees are the audit fees. I can not imagine Peanine township expenses would be much different.
Again folks...FACTS. Yes dates of millage expirations, cost of services, and factual statements do matter. Embellishments are dangerous.
If there are other documents to support your "well over six figures" I would love to see them.
Kathe
Where are you getting your figures of attorney cost and audits being "well over six figures ". That would equate to 7 figures, or a million. Looking at St. James proposed budget for 2018, and reviewing 17 actual one can observe the attorney fees are 10,000 and audit is 7,500. CPA fees are the audit fees. I can not imagine Peanine township expenses would be much different.
Again folks...FACTS. Yes dates of millage expirations, cost of services, and factual statements do matter. Embellishments are dangerous.
If there are other documents to support your "well over six figures" I would love to see them.
Kathe
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islandliving
- Posts: 526
- Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2015 9:10 am
- Location: Beaver Island, Michigan
Nancy,
If you read back posts to the beginning of this topics and read Ken Taylorâ??s thread on the Medical Center although very long you will see what this latest move is all about. It is not about saving money or the betterment of the Island, because if it was the figures, studies and somekind of a laid out plan would have been presented before it ever got to the ballot. I cannot even an answer to this question. Why is township consolidation a good idea? We should not be waiting for answers and facts they should have been presented first. This consolidation attempt is on the ballot because there are people upset with some board members and their decisions. They cannot get them replaced in the proper way of running for an election and getting on the board and making the changes they would like and believe in so they are trying to eliminate board members in this way. I am confident that enough voters see this and will shoot this down in May. It is just plain dirty politics in my opinion. Again if not we would not be waiting for answers and facts.
John McCafferty
If you read back posts to the beginning of this topics and read Ken Taylorâ??s thread on the Medical Center although very long you will see what this latest move is all about. It is not about saving money or the betterment of the Island, because if it was the figures, studies and somekind of a laid out plan would have been presented before it ever got to the ballot. I cannot even an answer to this question. Why is township consolidation a good idea? We should not be waiting for answers and facts they should have been presented first. This consolidation attempt is on the ballot because there are people upset with some board members and their decisions. They cannot get them replaced in the proper way of running for an election and getting on the board and making the changes they would like and believe in so they are trying to eliminate board members in this way. I am confident that enough voters see this and will shoot this down in May. It is just plain dirty politics in my opinion. Again if not we would not be waiting for answers and facts.
John McCafferty
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islandliving
- Posts: 526
- Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2015 9:10 am
- Location: Beaver Island, Michigan
I will probably be accused of being negative but I can take it. But for example if you Nancy had the idea of consolidating the townships would you just go to the minimum amount of voters, get a petition signed, then go to the county and get the proposal on the ballot, wait for the county to vote on the proposal and then let your voters know about the great idea? And you not even being a Township board member? And would you set up the election on a year where you took 2 years of wages from elected officials? Would you be this sneaky on something this big? Or would you do it differently?
John McCafferty
John McCafferty
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Nancy Levant
- Posts: 37
- Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:41 am
Hi Kathe,
I hope you are right. From experience, I was estimating what could be well over $100,000 totaling for both townships all associated costs as mentioned, so I should have stated the â??six-figureâ? estimate more clearly.
As I stated, I have not seen actual numbers, but it would be good to know or at least get an idea of what two sets of fees for such services cost. Even for smaller non-profits, I have never seen total fees as low as you claim. Either way, I think it is worth asking the question simply because a consolidation might reduce such expenses. It would be good to know by how much. I am guessing one of the strongest arguments for consolidation will be the cost savings of operating one vs. two townships.
For the record, I am wholly undecided on this vote, because the facts have not been made available on either side, so now I am also asking questions along with many others. In general, and as I have found and posted, consolidations commonly produce what was termed â??winners and losers,â? and it is also claimed to be an expensive process. So, as stated, facts are needed to support both arguments. I am certain that the vote is important enough that voters are very well informed in order that they are not led by strong personalities, nepotism, etc., which is particularly true for the new people on the island. For us, there is a lot to learn in short amount of time.
I hope you are right. From experience, I was estimating what could be well over $100,000 totaling for both townships all associated costs as mentioned, so I should have stated the â??six-figureâ? estimate more clearly.
As I stated, I have not seen actual numbers, but it would be good to know or at least get an idea of what two sets of fees for such services cost. Even for smaller non-profits, I have never seen total fees as low as you claim. Either way, I think it is worth asking the question simply because a consolidation might reduce such expenses. It would be good to know by how much. I am guessing one of the strongest arguments for consolidation will be the cost savings of operating one vs. two townships.
For the record, I am wholly undecided on this vote, because the facts have not been made available on either side, so now I am also asking questions along with many others. In general, and as I have found and posted, consolidations commonly produce what was termed â??winners and losers,â? and it is also claimed to be an expensive process. So, as stated, facts are needed to support both arguments. I am certain that the vote is important enough that voters are very well informed in order that they are not led by strong personalities, nepotism, etc., which is particularly true for the new people on the island. For us, there is a lot to learn in short amount of time.
Nancy
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meadefamily
- Posts: 280
- Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2014 7:35 pm
Nancy
Your post are very hard to follow. You did in fact challenge Andy on being on target for cost. You are correct in your statement that there needs to be facts.
Perhaps moving forward we can refrain from speculations and opinions on things that should be fact based only. Obtaining information on cost is not a difficult process. Your comment to me was "as I claim". I don't claim anything...I looked up the budget for St. James and read the financials that are public record.
I appreciate your willingness to understand that things need to be fact based and not speculations or using ones narrow scope of understanding to link a bigger picture.
Sometimes creating alot of noise creates confusion...this is a tactic that has been used in elections for years. We need less noise and more facts.
I look forward to your factual findings! Thanks Nancy!!
Your post are very hard to follow. You did in fact challenge Andy on being on target for cost. You are correct in your statement that there needs to be facts.
Perhaps moving forward we can refrain from speculations and opinions on things that should be fact based only. Obtaining information on cost is not a difficult process. Your comment to me was "as I claim". I don't claim anything...I looked up the budget for St. James and read the financials that are public record.
I appreciate your willingness to understand that things need to be fact based and not speculations or using ones narrow scope of understanding to link a bigger picture.
Sometimes creating alot of noise creates confusion...this is a tactic that has been used in elections for years. We need less noise and more facts.
I look forward to your factual findings! Thanks Nancy!!